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Don’t think for a second owners’ latest offer is what fans want

Nov 11, 2011, 11:02 AM EDT

Dallas Mavericks Victory Parade Getty Images

Let’s be honest about what you really like — trades and teams full of stars.

You like seeing basketball, too, which makes the new offer from NBA owners appealing to fans. Because it means 72 games and a full playoffs, basically a normal season. I want to see it in place for the same reasons.

You may get it (not that we have any say) but know that the owners offer — the parts the players are opposing of it particularly — goes against what fans have shown they want.

The owners have preached “competitive balance” and sold it sort of like the NFL’s parity. The NBA is never going to have the parity of the NFL (because the stars of the NBA control the game much more and are so much better than their peers). But that’s not really what is at the heart of all this. Small market owners watched LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony control the process, take all the power and force their way where they wanted to be. The owners want that power back.

I know what is coming in the comments — you say you want that, too. You’ll say that you want Grizzlies to be able to compete with the Lakers every year. You say you don’t want the Knicks to make all the big trades. You’ll say you want sanity in the system.

The numbers tell a different story. The numbers being every measure of fan interest we can find, whether it is television ratings or Internet traffic or ticket sales.

You love trades and free agency — there is a reason traffic on this and every other NBA web site peaks in July, not during the finals but during free agency. You love rumors. Love them. You love to read about and talk player movement. We all love to play armchair GM. There is a huge traffic and interest boost in February as the trading deadline nears for the same reason.

This new deal from the owners is designed to restrict the kind of big trades you clearly want to see (hence more restrictions on tax spending teams). Sure, there will be plenty of smaller trades and we can get excited about Sasha Vujacic getting moved for cash considerations. But the small market owners want to keep their stars. Those are the guys that sell tickets and bring in sponsors and boost local television ratings and they don’t want them all going to New York and Los Angeles and Miami.

Thing is, you love teams loaded with stars. You may say you hate the Miami Heat, but you watched them and bought their gear in record numbers. Ratings were up last season and the Heat and Knicks were the primary reasons. When you talk about the golden age of the NBA, you talk about the Jordan era when the Bulls dominated the league, or the 1980s when the Lakers or Celtics won eight out of nine titles. That’s when the ratings were highest.

What’s frustrating about the lockout is they figured out the money part of the lockout, mostly. That was supposed to be the hard part of getting a new NBA labor deal, but the players have gone all the way back to a 50/50 split of revenue, giving enough money back to cover what the owners said they lost (even if we don’t buy their math).

We’ll see what happens with the offer the owners made. We may get our wish and get basketball. But know that while David Stern and Adam Silver are selling this deal as good for the fans, it really isn’t. It’s just very good for the owners.

101 Comments (Feed for Comments)
  1. nicktomfrank - Nov 11, 2011 at 11:14 AM

    This is a joke right?

    You can’t simply look at some pageview numbers from the summer and assume its because of whatever fits your agenda, Kurt. The bump in traffic in that part of the year is because there is no basketball being played. Its very simple. We don’t have any games to watch or any scores to check so we look for NBA news because thats all that’s going on.

    The Heat and Knicks were the reason the ratings were so high this year? WHAAAAAT? The Knicks? Pass the dutchie, bro.

    • sbowman1479 - Nov 11, 2011 at 4:01 PM

      Kurt Are you trying to get on the “Heat Index”…If this was in my newspaper I wouldn’t put this on the floor for my puupy to squat on. What a hack job. Seems like your destined to cover CYO games not the NBA.

  2. lphboston - Nov 11, 2011 at 11:22 AM

    Celtics fan here.

    To quote Herman Cain, Nein, Nein, Nein.

    The people who write on this blog (Kurt especially) might as well send out press releases from the players’ union. Fact is, the owners are right — the NBA as structured is insane and there is zero competitive balance. Despite what the blog says, congregating stars on a few teams makes it impossible for mid-markets to have a shot at a title. And that’s shitty for the game.

    I back the owners. Hard salary cap. Players get a reduced share of the profits. Keep ticket prices reasonable. If the players don’t like it, find another line of work. And if that means my team can’t combine players like Garnett, Pierce and Allen again, so be it.

    Teams should succeed or fail based on how smart they are in assemlbing a team, not by how deep the owners’ pockets are.

    • nelle - Nov 12, 2011 at 2:09 PM

      Another Celts fan here, and the fact is the owners are at fault here.

      If this current proposal is accepted, it is possible players will strike back in other ways, and one way is to refuse to resign with their current team if the owner is deemed one of the hardline owners. In essence, they could have huge impact on television contracts, franchise value, and competitiveness.

      You say you value the ability to assemble a team, but are not players human beings? Would you prefer to be forced to work for your employer and not have the freedom to market your skill and experience elsewhere?

      The better way is to share revenue between teams, not restrict players in ways they object to. The owners could have a deal at 52.5%, a gain of 4.5% or 180 million. With an owner to owner revenue sharing plan, each franchise would be able to compete under the current salary cap structure.

  3. nicktomfrank - Nov 11, 2011 at 11:26 AM

    As for the spike in traffic during the trade deadline that you assume means we all love player movement…

    Just because someone checks PBT everyday, three times a day in February does not mean “omg all this player movement is awesome!!”. That could be a lifetime Denver Nuggets fan who desperately wants his team to keep Carmelo. Which means everyday he checks this site just hoping, wishing, praying that he can read a story that will give him some optimism about his team.

  4. brooklynbulls - Nov 11, 2011 at 11:40 AM

    Good read Kurt. The facts are validated by the numbers and the numbers dont lie. Nba free agency is my summer sport (I cant stay awake through an entire baseball game unless i’m at Yankee stadium). Even though I’m no fan of Lebron and company their formation made for interesting basketball. Whether you were rooting for them or against them, bottom line, you paid attention. Player movement IS exciting; when Shaq left LA, AI paired with Melo in Denver, KG to Boston etc made for exciting basketball although Melo to New York was annoying hell

    • somekat - Nov 11, 2011 at 6:23 PM

      Hmmm…seems to me the 3 you mentioned (KG, AI, Shaq), were all moved getting very solid packages in return. Those players were traded, or let go as a mutual decision. It was not like it has become where players can force trades to the team they want, and since they can, the team they want obviously will not give up even close to full value.

      You reasoning is a joke, and once again Kurt, I hope that you admit that you are nothing but a pro-union opinion producer, and not in the slightest any type of journalist. The players are like the auto-union workers who were getting paid 50 bucks an hour to work an assembly line, then acted like it was some sort of injustice when the company asked them to take a pay cut because they could literally not make money. Still get more than any reasonable person knows you are worth, much more, but god forbid they don’t get more and more and more

  5. 99straws - Nov 11, 2011 at 11:42 AM

    No, I like thinking that the small market team that I root for has a chance to win. I’m completely with the owners. Fix the system, even if it costs the season.

    • ctw3786 - Nov 11, 2011 at 11:33 PM

      If you want your small market team to win, this is what the owners should do…….change the DRAFT! The owners are lying about parity because if they cared that much, they would change the draft. They care about money more. The draft is how you get better, not by restricting stars to move from team to team. The owners make very poor decisions in picking players and giving guys big deals. i.e. Greg Oden, Gilbert Arenas. Now they want out of deals. Portland would be in the Finals every year if they had Durant, but look at how that sets you back years picking bad players. UNPROVEN players really. And to make matters worse, they gave this guy more money to get hurt again. If they change the draft this is what will happen. More players coming out will be able to contribute right away, instead of years down the line. Owners would make less poor decisions, because they likely that they guy you pick contributing right away will be much higher than. Make a rule where you have to stay 2 years in college, or straight to the NBA. Dumb kids will make mistakes going to the league, and they’ll be out soon anyway. The ones that choose to go to college and stay the two years, will benefit, the NBA will benefit, and college ball will benefit. Everyone wins.

  6. skinzfan21 - Nov 11, 2011 at 11:42 AM

    The owners have been rediculous throughout this entire process! I hope the players decline this offer until a fair deal is on the table! What people fail to realize is this league doesn’t exist without these players, cancel the season if owners continue these attempts to”low-ball” the players! College basketball season starts tonight, f*** it

    • somekat - Nov 11, 2011 at 6:27 PM

      what you fail to realize, is that within 5 years (and that is stretching it), there would be a whole new crop of starts to take the current stars place. It would take a while to get back, but the players do not make the league.

      I have an easy solution for this. If all players are willing to give owners the same percentage of any endorsement deals that the owners give the players of bri, then they can talk to me. Because they wouldn’t be an attractive commodity to endorse any products if the league didn’t give him a platform to play in and showcase his talents.

  7. condeclar - Nov 11, 2011 at 11:54 AM

    I am shocked at the sheer stupidity of most people.

    Don’t you realize the more the players make means the more you have to pay????????

    The owner’s are trying to fix a broken system so that they can actually profit, which will prevent prices from increasing dramatically…. yet so many people bash the owners for trying to reduce costs, which you the fan pay!!!!!

    We just live in an age where people just don’t get it.

    • yanivvinay - Nov 11, 2011 at 9:06 PM

      They are not going to pass on savings, they’re not in the business of kindness. They’re going to find a price point that gets fans in the seats but still keeping it as high as possible to create the best income. This lockout is not about your ticket prices, those are always going to be based on demand, this is about billionaires increasing their profit margin in relation to system cost.

      So maybe we can agree parts of both sides are assholes, cause there are some owners who are ready to get rolling, and lord knows there are a lot of players who would like at least some of their paycheck back. But this is not about the fans. We’re about as useful as herded cattle; without us they will starve, but they could care less of our general well being (aka wallets).

  8. idontevenwannaknow - Nov 11, 2011 at 11:59 AM

    Ummmm, ok. Let’s just make the assumption that what fans really want is a couple teams year in and year out playing for the championship every year. If I was a celtics or lakers fan I would want that too, but if that’s what us fans really want, then start getting rid of these teams that have no chance at attracting players, as well as fan interest, move those players to the teams we want loaded up with superstars, then every team will be sort of like an all-star team, then we can watch all-star weekend every game.

    Count me as a person who would get tired of watching the same teams, over and over again playing for the championship. Count me as someone enjoys variation in the sports world. Count me as a person who likes to see any random team have a chance at the title.

    As a pistons fan, nothing was greater to me in the last ten years in the nba than watching my pistons team send that lakers team into a tailspin with a good team played series that shut up all those who wanted to give the title to the lakers instead of making them play for it. I’m sure I am not the only person outside a major market that does not want to see just the major markets succeed, while the other teams are just there as “filler” on the schedule.

    I appreciate fans who follow a team, rain or shine, their whole life waiting for that moment that their team will actually win something relevant. Bandwagon fans have it the easiest, just follow those winning teams year to year and that’s it. It is much harder to be a fan of a particular team lifelong with all the player movements, administration changes, and ownership changes that can derail your favorite/hometown team. As an NBA fan, I would appreciate more parity, not a consolidation of talent on major market teams. If the NBA continues down this path, they will most certainly lose my interest.

  9. cancionisimas - Nov 11, 2011 at 11:59 AM

    I don’t need numbers to tell what I WANT.

    And, yes, of course, i love free agency and big trades, but i love much, much more the parity and a system fair who makes possible to root for the Grizzlies and with hope for the future.

    Look, fellas, i am from Spain. You don’t know how sick, horrible, awful and pity is our system, our “all goes to Real Madrid and FC Barcelona”. It kills any kind of interest if you’re a true sports fan, and no a fanatic. And the numbers, of course, says that everyone wants this stupid leage of two this year. And the next. And the next. And the next…

    You, americans, have a real competitive gem on the NFL, and the more the NBA looks like the NFL the better for the long term.

    At least, since my point of view, is obvious.

    Excuse my english.

    • brooklynbulls - Nov 11, 2011 at 12:12 PM

      I understand the implications may have been lost in translation. The numbers only speak to the interest of the majority or a significant spike in overall fan interest after a certain event. And that majority is looking forward to the free agency that will almost immediately begin if a deal is struck

    • drmonkeyarmy - Nov 11, 2011 at 12:14 PM

      Beat me too it. I was about to make the point that people don’t want the NBA to turn into La Liga where only two teams have a legit shot at a title or even the EPL where only 5 teams have a legit shot at a title.

  10. micklethepickle - Nov 11, 2011 at 12:05 PM

    Kurt, you must not read the comments on your own blog, since about 75-80% of them rag on you for being a shill for the players. Do you know what fans of the MAJORITY of NBA teams want? A chance for their team to win a championship. Maybe you could take a break from telling us how noble the players are/what fans think and want, and explain to me why a fan of the Toronto Raptors should cheer for a league that is made up of 4-6 Miami Heat/L.A. Lakers -type teams, and 20 Washington Wizards type teams?

    Now, since the majority of people who buy shoes/jerseys are bandwagon, fairweather fans who root for whatever player appears on ESPN Sports center most often, it isn’t surprising that free agency gets a lot of reads. But make no mistake, there isn’t a chance in hell that I will keep paying for overpriced tix to watch my hometown team play the part of the Washington Generals vs. one of the big-market super teams. In a battle between the richest 1% and the richest .1%, I am rooting for the side that will give me the best shot of never seeing another disgrace like last summer’s FA debacle; which do you think that is?

    For Christ’s sake, I get that bloggers don’t have to act like real journalists, but at least FAKE some objecivity, man!!

    • mikeewright7 - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:29 PM

      4-6 teams? Players go where the want too, why should people be mad at that, you must fall in that 20 Washington Wizards team list.. Get off Kurt Players are getting hit to hard because of where they want to play, some players like melo like to play for his home team not because its bigger marketing..Example curry said he would love to play for the bobcats…is that a big market? no
      however i fall in that 4-6 team Celtics,LA,Miami,Spurs, Mavs,Bulls,Magics maybe

      Celtics Fan

  11. 140chrviolation - Nov 11, 2011 at 12:05 PM

    So, less gossip, less BS speculation, less rumor that turns out to be a figment of a writers deadline induced hallucination… In other words, less media manipulation of the fans for the sake of getting overexcited eye-balls to their pages. What is not to like?

    Now if Stern and Silver can figure out a way to keep their players’ weddings to celebrity F$$$ dolls with reptilian pulses from becoming news on basketball blogs (and their writers stop thinking that premising the coverage with “This is sort of embarrassing that I have to report this but…) then it’s one more step in a direction I would absolutely not mind at all. Obviously I’m in the minority.

  12. bowens3181 - Nov 11, 2011 at 12:09 PM

    This article is flawed in that it is comparing numbers from different time periods. Interest in the NBA has gone up because interest in sports has gone up, but interest in the NBA is rising slower then any of the other leagues because people are tired of watching the same 5-6 teams compete and everyone else suck. In traditional basketball markets, like Boston, the NHL playoffs had higher tv ratings when both the bruins and celtics were still playing. The nba system is flawed the same way the nhls was prior to their lockout, and just like in the NHL, fixing the system and allowing every team to be competitive will make things way more interesting for the casual fan who wants to see their own team succeed.

    • 6thsense79 - Nov 11, 2011 at 8:10 PM

      Please site where you got your information that NBA ratings are rising slower than other sports. I follow sports pretty closely and have never heard anything like that. Also how do you explain the rating spikes the league experiences when a big city team wins the championship and the slump when small market teams win it. Take the Lakers of last decade and the Spurs. Both went to and won multiple championships but the Lakers always had higher ratings. None of the excuses you give explains away that fact.

  13. jlinatl - Nov 11, 2011 at 12:13 PM

    Figures lie and liars figure.

    I really don’t think there is any lie in the figures. I just think the data is not truly representative because of the short time frame. The Decision, disgusting as it may have been to many of us, resulted in interest… as did Carmelo. The problem becomes if the same teams control the game due to player forced movement over the course of time it will likely erode interest for the casual fan.

    It is good for the NBA for the Lakers and Knicks to be good but whether it is Miami or Milwaukee probably matters little. I’m all for a system that allows and encourages movement. I just don’t want the agents/players deciding. I think the long term result will be negative for the fans and for the game.

    • 6thsense79 - Nov 11, 2011 at 7:58 PM

      I don’t know. The golden age of the NBA saw the Lakers and Celtics winning most of the championships in the 80s. Jordan’s Bulls won 6 championships in 8 years during the 90s and the NBA was as popular as ever. Small market San Antonio wins multiple titles between late 90s and new millinium and ratings dip. People call them boring. Shaq and Kobe 3 peat ratings spike. Garnnett goes to Celtics and gives them a championship ratings spike. NBA and its fans love big market marquee teams winning. The numbers easily prove this.

  14. scy - Nov 11, 2011 at 12:32 PM

    Or it could be like the NFL where very few trades happen and people STILL GET EXCITED around the trade deadlines and FA opening. This article is just more crap from an author who has been lost throughout this whole mess.

  15. rreducla1 - Nov 11, 2011 at 12:50 PM

    Maybe you could take a break from telling us how noble the players are/what fans think and want, and explain to me why a fan of the Toronto Raptors should cheer for a league that is made up of 4-6 Miami Heat/L.A. Lakers -type teams, and 20 Washington Wizards type teams


    This has been explained several times. What you are saying in this post really is:

    “I believe everything David Stern tells me, I am mad at LeBron James, I am sick of the Lakers, and I know nothing about the NBA or its history.”

    Again: if the history of the NBA teaches us anything, it is that you win by:

    1. Landing superstars on draft night.
    2. Building intelligently around them.

    Look no further than the league’s two best young teams, Oklahoma City and Chicago. Chicago’s market size has nothing to do with their position right now: they landed Rose, Deng, Noah and Gibson through the draft. They got Boozer because they have a good team and they had cap space. And where did Boozer sign before when he was an FA? Utah. For exactly the same reasons.

    OKC, of course, is one of the league’s smallest markets and Durant has already re-upped.

    There are other examples, and I have listed them before.

    The NBA will never–ever–have NFL-style competitive balance, as has been explained many times before and as Kurt just explained again.

    James’ decision to play with Wade in Miami was a one-time thing, created by a unique set of circumstances. People point to Carmelo Anthony, but it’s not the same thing. Denver got talent back for Anthony, and Anthony is nowhere near as good as James.

    And no one seems to mention this: Miami didn’t win the title. A well-run team built around a superstar did. They did it with a high payroll, just like the one Orlando has now and Cleveland had when James was there. The difference was good management and good coaching. Dallas had them. Cleveland didn’t.

    The Raptors will have a chance to be good if they get a superstar through the draft and make good decisions around him. Their other problem is simply that that they play in Canada, and some guys don’t want to be there, which is a league issue, and is true for any cold-weather small market.

    So you and about 100 other guys on this site should give the insults directed at Kurt a break and educate yourselves.

    • cancionisimas - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:05 PM

      The league is not the NFL, right, and never be, but the system has to help the parity. That’s all. That’s how the future will be better for all teams, including the biggest.

      • rreducla1 - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:11 PM

        What makes you think the league has less parity now than it has before? There is no evidence for that.

      • cancionisimas - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:28 PM

        I believe league has, now, less parity than in 90s. But my point is that more parity is better, so anything that goes in that direction is my way, whatever the level of parity is right now and wathever it was in the past. We are talking about the future.

    • mikeewright7 - Nov 11, 2011 at 2:14 PM

      A well-run team built around a superstar did

  16. fouldwimmerlaik - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:04 PM

    Wow. For all of the time I have sporadically posted comments on this site, I have steadfastly stayed out of the “Kurt is a this” and “Kurt is a that” debates. While I laugh at the fact that he can’t go through a day without posting one or two “Lebron is really a great guy and all who hate him are evil” articles, and while I may have posted comments on those articles, I never got into any comments about Kurt and his proclivities towards Lebron Lust. But, now he has posted something purporting to tell me what it is a I want, so now I have to say, JESUS KURT, why are you such a blatant shill for the players????

    Really? You are going to tell me what I want or pretend to know what fans want. NBA fans want THEIR TEAMS TO WIN. No, I do not like fabricated teams full of stars. I hate what the Heat and the “Big Three” did to bastardize the system so that they could engineer a dominant team. I hate all the other crap “star” players have done for the last few years to basically force their team to trade them to a big market team or get left with nothing. In my opinion, though it is only my opinion and not stated as fact, one of the reasons that the hardline owners are taking their stance is that they know they are screwed unless they stop the ability of star players to decide “Okay, we will all go here and win multiple championships with an unbeatable team.” That system will lead to the same three or four teams winning the championship and the rest of the teams left to serve as fodder for the rest of the season.

    Look, I, as an NBA fan, know that my team is not going to win it every year. They shouldn’t. Where is the fun in that? It should be a struggle and it should be a fight and it shouldn’t be pre-ordained with a championship celebration before the season even begins. The years my team doesn’t win (and there are a lot of those) I would rather see a multitude of teams competing for the championship. I would love to see the Minnesotas, the Charlottes, the Lebron-less Clevelands in the finals. I would love for the Finals to be a ever-spinning turnstile of different teams competing for their rings. I don’t want to watch the same teams every year.

    Yes, fans are interested in trades. Wow, thanks for that gem. But that doesn’t mean we want to see the same four teams fighting over the best free agents and the rest of the teams picking up the scraps.

    I am a fan of the NBA and I long for diversity in the Finals, not a stranglehold by the big markets. And, for the record, I am a fan of a big market team. I am firmly behind the owners because I want to see some sanity in the system.

    The owners proposal will not bring an end to big trades and free agency excitement and to suggest that it will is evidencing either a complete lack of knowledge or an unbending bias towards the players side. It may mean that the big trades and free agent movements will not be as lucrative for the players, but it will also mean there will be more teams involved in those trades (other than the current small market teams involvement as the team losing their stars). It will mean there are more teams in the mix to land those stars.

    Jesus, Kurt, why ARE you such a shill for the players? I am truly growing tired of this site. It is one thing to report ongoing NBA news, but it is another to be so one-sided on the issues that reading things you write becomes like reading a manifesto for the players. You have jumped the shark with this article.

    • rreducla1 - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:09 PM

      I would love for the Finals to be a ever-spinning turnstile of different teams competing for their rings. I don’t want to watch the same teams every year.


      Then you need to pick a different sport.

      • hystoracle - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:16 PM

        That’s great tell a fan of the sport to get lost… That’s a great way to sell it.

        I think all NBA fans really want is basketball to watch this season.. Whatever gets the guys on the court playing the game will make them happy..

        Kind of like the NFL – everyone had opinions – pro-player, pro-owner, anti-both.. but all fans agreed that they just wanted Football.. Same goes for NBA- Fans just want Basketball, period.

      • fouldwimmerlaik - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:17 PM

        Sadly, you are absolutely correct about that. Which is why I, as an NBA fan, hope a new system will come from this.

      • mikeewright7 - Nov 11, 2011 at 2:25 PM

        Lmao lol thats super funny…and yea you do need to pick a different sport, NBA has teams that make it to the playoffs because they simply have better players or players who arent all about stats, who wanna make their players and themselves better, Prime example Derrick Rose and KD, look where they were at some years ago, now look D.Rose MVP
        , “why” because he work his a$$ of in the offseason and prolly on his off time, teams that win has nothing to do with Big marketing as much as people say it does, it has to do with how good players are and the ones that suck (K.Brown) how hard they work to make themselves better but Good$hit rredcla1

  17. themonster49 - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:05 PM

    Goodbye Mr. Wishyouwerebasketball. Im far over your ‘defend the bad’ stance to all of the nba. It has been nice. I hope to never see you around, take care.

  18. rreducla1 - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:14 PM

    I am truly growing tired of this site


    Turnstile is that way.

    And did it ever occur to you that maybe some people are tired of uneducated rants about LeBron James?

    • fouldwimmerlaik - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:19 PM

      If you get from my post that it was an “anti-Lebron rant” then you are clueless. And I state that one as less opinion and more fact.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:38 PM

      I don’t see how that was an anti-Lebron rant at all…the only thing he mentioned about Lebron was the overwhelming personal bias that Kurt has in reporting Lebron stories. I am a complete neutral on Lebron and I find Kurt to be a complete Lebron fanboy. That isn’t a reflection upon Lebron, more of a reflection on Kurt. Now, if you want to call his rant an anti-Kurt rant that would probably be a more accurate statement. However, that is not a bad thing. I like Kurt, he is a good sport about things, but his biases come to light a bit too much when dealing with certain topics. But whatever…it is his site and he is entitled to whatever opinions he has.

      • rreducla1 - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:40 PM

        See below.

  19. mikeewright7 - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:34 PM

    OMg people…the reason other teams then the Celtics,Mavs,Miami,LA,Bulls,Spurs is because other teams or players are just trash…it may have something to do with Marketing but you telling me if a avg player was on Miami that means they will win? If Lebron was on raptors or suns or wizards clippers some weak team they will still prolly win 50+..the point im making is that team succees because great players work they butt of to win..Bosh played well in Raptors lebron dominanted in Clevland KG did well in Minn….the owners were to focused on their star instead of supporting them with good players or you can look at it ass other players was focus on their superstar rather then make themself better..

  20. rreducla1 - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:34 PM

    If you get from my post that it was an “anti-Lebron rant” then you are clueless


    No, I do not like fabricated teams full of stars. I hate what the Heat and the “Big Three” did to bastardize the system so that they could engineer a dominant team.


    One thing a few people still don’t get is that the “Big Three” thing is, actually, 100% LeBron. Wade stayed with the team that drafted him, which is, supposedly, one of the things that guys like you want. Bosh is very good, but no one is going to freak out because of where a guy like Bosh signs.Toronto is arguably better off starting over without him.

    The James move was a big deal because he is the best player in basketball, and one of the best players of all time, and he is in his prime. He added to that by:

    Making a huge drama out of it (with a lot of help from the media)
    Stiffing a championship-starved blue-collar town to go play in a Sunbelt-touristy glamour town–and doing it on TV.

    I understand that there is some anger about that; James handled that and other things badly. He deserved some blowback, and he got it.

    But in terms of the CBA, some people have taken that anger and whipped it up into a mishmash of uninformed rants and posts about competitive balance, parity, big and small markets, etc, which ignore both the league’s long-term and recent history, as well as its current state, and numerous other pertinent facts.

    And that is exactly what David Stern was counting on.

    • fouldwimmerlaik - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:37 PM

      You’re right, I am tired of your uneducated rants about Lebron James.

      • rreducla1 - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:39 PM

        If you want to dispute any of the facts, or the opinions, in that post or my other one, be my guest.

  21. rreducla1 - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:37 PM

    I believe league has, now, less parity than in 90s.


    The Bulls won six times in eight years, and might well have won eight in a row if MJ had not decided he needed to try playing minor league baseball. There were articles in 97 and 98 suggesting the Bulls were bad for the league.

    • mikeewright7 - Nov 11, 2011 at 4:16 PM

      Thats stupid how can the Bulls be bad for the League?

      Because they worked hard and they knew how to compete and play Defense, Great Teams comes from the 1 great player, generally, or more and you surround him with role players typically one that knows their role, rather its a shooter, rebounder,passer,etc then you have a leader on your team that can control his ego and others on the team,

      Then have a great coaching staff that wants you to be the best damn team on the DEFENSIVE end of the court then a owner small or big marketer who is in control of it all, any team can have that….worst team in the League gets the 1-5 picks at the draft, they just not smart to use there budget on quality players

      Then pick players who wants to be better and who wants to win, understanding that you may not win the first 4years but if you work hard and stay those extra hours in the gym you will..thats what jordan did,(so i hear) ray Allen/Reggie Miller and his shooting, Kobe and his game

  22. brooklynbulls - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:46 PM

    For all of you Kurt bashers that refuse to believe that there is brilliance and ignorance on both sides of this bail out, keep in mind that his reporting is consistent with most major and reputable sport sites. I dont know what you’ve been reading, but since you have such a problem here, go back to Backwood Bubba’s basketball blog and bash away

    • fouldwimmerlaik - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:50 PM

      Yes, let’s keep this site limited to people who agree with you and Kurt and banish everyone else to the backwoods. Brilliant.

      • rreducla1 - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:58 PM

        He is simply saying you are free to leave if Kurt and Matt’s posts bug you so much–and that goes for you and all the other “shills” for the owners.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:50 PM

      It’s easier to click over here from HBT.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:53 PM

      Also, we should base our opinions based upon what “major media outlets” think?

  23. rreducla1 - Nov 11, 2011 at 1:50 PM

    Thanks, brooklynbulls.

  24. bowens3181 - Nov 11, 2011 at 2:18 PM

    This debate is hilarious. It is basically all the fans of the big market teams like the Knicks, Heat, Celtics, Lakers, etc. who are worried that their teams are going to lose the unfair competitive advantage that their teams enjoy simply because they have more money, against all the fans of the other 20-25 teams in the league. The NBA is a flawed league. It has been stagnating for years now while the other three major sports leagues are growing in popularity. There is a reason that this last World Series had such good ratings, it is because fans love watching exciting teams play for the championship that are not seemingly there every year. Having a couple of dominant teams is fine, but the direction in which the NBA is heading is one where all of the good players are on 5 teams, and the other 25 teams are forced to get by with the leftovers. I can tell you with 100% certainty that when that happens, the fans of those other 25 teams will lose interest in seeing their teams lose constantly and even more money will be lost, and eventually teams will start folding, which no one, not even the players want.
    As a huge fan of one of the NHL teams that prior to the lockout was one of the teams that spent all the money and was constantly a contender, I can tell you that I was a bit upset when my teams ability to simply outbid everyone else for the best free agents disappeared. However, I can also tell you that 6 years later, hockey has never been as exciting, and new teams are contending every year, which is keeping fan bases all over North America interested. The same thing goes for the NFL. I’m sorry if all you big-market fans are whining because your teams will have to start playing at the same level as everyone else, but if you are a true fan of the sport, and not just your favorite team, then you have to realize that competitive balance is essential for the continued success of the NBA

    • mikeewright7 - Nov 11, 2011 at 2:41 PM

      It has nothing to do with what team your routing for im from Milwaukee WI and Milwaukee Bucks had a good run 2years ago “fear the deer” and i am a Celtics fan, Look at Rondo in 2008 nobody really knew who he was until he got better and work on his game in the off season samething for Jordan and his team dominating the 90s Kobe after Shaq left Dirk and Dalls 14 years to win a NBA and they made the playoffs and Finals before they won their title, other teams like Raptors(Vince carter, Tracy mcgrady) Timberwolves(Kevin garrnett) and other teams who fall in this 20 trash a$$ teams may have had stars on their team and they traded them because they werent patient enough to build other players around them, if Vince Carter was still on the Raptors he might “MIGHT” have had a ring by now if they put the right ppl around him, so it comes from how smart the owners are and coaching to put a “SMART” team around him

      and i like Kurt he might be a Lebron’s #1 fan or he’s smart because and or every article he writes with LEbron on mentioning Lebron draws attention and debates like this

      like him or love him he’s getting our attention

      Good Stuff Kurt!

      • bowens3181 - Nov 11, 2011 at 2:45 PM

        This literally makes no sense. I actually can’t tell if what you are trying to argue here…

      • mikeewright7 - Nov 11, 2011 at 4:03 PM


        You stated ppl wanna see there hometown win, which is not 100% idc if Milwaukee Bucks ever wins because im a celtics fan, which brought me to Rondo, in 2008 nobody paid attention to Rondo but he work at his game to get where he’s at now, Which brings me to the point that you dont need a big market to win championships

        My Next Point is that good teams are basically created by a great coaching stuff and owners who can maintain egos and help teams combine their strengths to win games and also good teams are created by players who work their a$$ off like jordan did after Pistons ran him over or dirk after 14 yrs of failure to Win a title or even Kobe after he lost Shaq and was continously put out by the suns those 2yrs in a row.. these teams who have been trash for only GOD knows how long more then likely had a chance with a star player (raptors Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady) (timberwolves KG) (Cavs Lebron) but they didnt succeed because owners and coaches were not provided a good “supporting cast” around their star players, some teams have to build for 6 or more years from today cause the NBA title will be Miami,Boston,LA,Spurs,Mavs,or someone like that OKC,BUlls are there just a tab bit more pieces….

        “competitive balance” has nothing to do with lebron,Wade,Melo,Paul,Amare,Howard,rose,Williams,Kobe etc just to name some elites which brings me to this point these are players are elites because they simply worked harder and stayed longer in the gym then the avg NBA player….

        you can easily have J.R.Smith be a center piece of The Nuggets hes a slasher who can shoot nows it up to him to stay longer in the gym and work harder in the off season and its takes a great coaching staff and owners to bring the right pieces around him or any “Potential star player”

  25. rreducla1 - Nov 11, 2011 at 2:30 PM

    You might be right, if basketball were played like hockey, football, or baseball.

    It isn’t, so you’re wrong. I think that’s pretty hilarious.

    And, of course, like every other guy on this site who makes this argument, you ignore numerous basic facts of both the league’s current situation and its history.

    • bowens3181 - Nov 11, 2011 at 2:43 PM

      What numeric basic facts? That the NBA does well when there are stars on teams? As opposed to what? There is nothing to compare it to because the system has always been the same. You are ignoring numeric facts and taking the easy way out by simply claiming that the NBA is so unique and special and isn’t like any of the other sports, which is completely ridiculous. Sports fans are sports fans, and no matter what sport they follow they want to see competition and they want to see their team do well. Other leagues have done better when there has been competitive balance then when 3 or 4 teams dominated the whole league. That is a fact. The NBA being soooooo different then all the other leagues that this argument doesn’t apply is bullsh*t with no evidence or facts to back it up.

      • rreducla1 - Nov 11, 2011 at 3:03 PM

        I already backed it up, in this thread.

        Kurt already backed it up, in his post.

        You either didn’t read it, won’t acknowledge it, are pointedly ignoring it, or don’t understand it.

        And I notice–again–that you have no facts at all. No teams. No names. No history. No numbers.

        That’s great if the NHL system works. Has nothing to do with the NBA.

        Here is a number: NBA revenues had been steadily rising for the last few years, hitting 3.817 billion last year. Check Larry Coon’s website of you don’t believe me.

        The owners wanted, and are going to get, a bigger slice of that pie. But that is all that is going on here. If you’re in favor of that, fine. But that is all you got.

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